Ascended Astarion And How He's Not Like Cazador

"I HATE Ascended Astarion..."

(People are so afraid to face the truth that they came up with a headcanon about losing his soul, which was completely debunked by the developers.)

hot take good endings only players are really fucking rude to the point that it's actually ridiculous

you don't understand the game, the story, the lore, or the characters better because you prefer the good endings

you don't love the characters more because you prefer the good endings

people who like the evil endings aren't stupid

people who like the evil endings don't like them "just because they think it's sexy"

if you want to know why people like the ending you don't like

you could

just

ask

instead of making shit the fuck up

Neil Newbon on Ascended Astarion

Neil: I do love the fact that I got to create kind of two characters in one.

Blue Owl Medic: I was just thinking that. Yeah, you did.

Neil: So now that the game has come out and the whole thing, we can talk a little bit more freely about the game. No real spoilers, folks, because obviously people are still playing through it, which is amazing, including me. But there is an ascended Astarion, which people probably know, as well as an unascended Astarion. I'm not going to go into details of why, although it is all over the internet, but anyway.

But one of the fun things that I got to do with the directors and the writer as well, with Stephen, and also the other writers that contributed towards Astarion, [is that they] wrote this ascended storyline. And so, when I came across that, I realized that 'Oh, his voice probably changes as well, because his whole status changes and his whole situation changes and his power changes.' So I got to do something else, because that would also be an easy way to switch between one and the other.

And so I decided that, well, I've always talked about Astarion being very theatrical. So what if Astarion's unascended spawn is theatrical, and ascended Astarion is operatic, and I use that as a sort of launchpad. So that one is theatre, one is opera. So the two are the same kind of things, but essentially… Do you know what I mean? It's like that kind of thing.

I offered that up to the directors and they really liked it. Kirsty Gilmore was the first person who I tried it with. I think it was Kirsty Gilmore, who is an amazing director. I'm pretty sure it was her session I did the first Lord Astarion and we set the tone there. And that was really cool.

BOM: And I don't know if that was your choice, but he also holds himself differently.

Neil: Yes, he does, he definitely holds himself differently.

BOM: He stands way more upright, his chest is a little more out

Neil: Yes, that's status. That's all Laban work. We're just using completely different status shift changes as well. So whereas he has a lot of flow and all that kind of stuff and it's theatrical and distracting--it's always 'look over here and don't see how I really feel' with spawn Astarion.

With Lord Astarion, we talked a lot about the idea that the cover is now off completely. So that you see him at his most terrible, and it's completely honest and he doesn't have to pretend anymore. So he loses a lot of the flamboyance and the fun of the theatricality, which is all a distraction anyway. That's all distraction so you don't see how he's hurt and damaged and his vulnerability. Lord Astarion doesn't need that anymore. So we just thought, okay, now *mimics taking off a mask* it's off. He doesn't need to pretend, he doesn't need to do too much. It's all about the status and that kind of stuff.

It was a really fun experience to take a character I've been doing for a long time and then flip it. And that was, again, brilliant writing by Larian, brilliant storytelling by them all and brilliant ideas. So yeah, it was really fun.

--from Neil's February 1, 2024 twitch stream

I wish Tav had dialogue options at this moment like:

I love you.

I trust you.

Tav is literally going to die in a couple of minutes. I want Tav to have the chance to say something before Astarion starts turning them.

Well, in any case, he knows that… Astarion: You are so beautiful... And you will be beautiful forever. Thank you for trusting me.

Fans of Ascended Astarion have consistently faced accusations of romanticizing abuse since the fandom’s inception. After Patch 7, these accusations have only intensified, now directed not only at players but also at the developers themselves, Larian Studios.

And I have something to say about this.

Astarion has become a sort of mirror for players, reflecting their own experiences, personal preferences, and so on. The romanticization of this character is common among almost all of his fans, regardless of which route they have chosen as their favorite. Attachment to this character inevitably involves a degree of idealization and bias in the perception of his actions. Even when Astarion engages in questionable or cruel behavior, fans often tend to find justifications for him.

From the very first moments of the game, Astarion reveals himself as a personality prone to deviant behavior: he manipulates those around him, shows a tendency towards violence, and exhibits a disregard for morality. Yet, despite this, players often interpret his actions from a standpoint of sympathy, seeing them as a result not so much of his character, but rather of his tragic past. As a victim of violence and cruel torment at the hands of Cazador, Astarion evokes a desire to justify his actions, labeling him as a victim of circumstance.

Thus, Astarion's past serves as a powerful justification for many players regarding his dark deeds: instead of viewing him as a cruel manipulator, they see a wounded soul struggling to survive in a world that has always been unfair to him. This desire to find justification and "save" the character "from himself" is intensified by the romantic context of his interactions with the player. Such a perspective often results in the dangerous traits of Astarion losing their edge, creating a more palatable image that fits into the romantic fantasy of redemption.

This undoubtedly contradicts the author's intent, who, when asked what traits are most important for Astarion to "be him," emphasized that Astarion remains a horrible character throughout the game and in many respects. According to the writer, he is prone to violence, revels in blood, and embodies the darker sides of human nature. Astarion is someone who can kill with a smile on his face. Nevertheless, his character is also designed for the player to feel sympathy for him: despite his wicked nature, he must remain appealing and cheerful so that the player wants to have him in their party. The writer likely did not believe that the status of a victim and survivor should serve as an indulgence for the character.

But only fans of Ascended Astarion face accusations of romanticizing him, and I just want to draw your attention to the double standards behind such accusations.

The idea of "fixing" Astarion is a form of romanticization, and this trope, in essence, is indeed a romanticization.

The trope "I can fix him" is one of the popular plot devices in literature, film, and games, especially in romantic storylines where one partner encounters a dark character. In the realm of gaming and artistic fiction, such a trope is not only acceptable but also appealing, as it allows players to experience an emotionally rich yet safe fantasy.

However, in real life, the trope "I can fix him" can be dangerous, as it creates the illusion that love can change a person and resolve psychological or behavioral issues that actually require professional help.

This trope can distort the perception of relationships, creating the illusion that toxic behavior, violence, or manipulation from a partner can be changed by the power of love, attachment, or willingness to sacrifice oneself.

"You were by my side through all of this. Through bloodlust and pain and misery. You were patient. You cared. You trusted me when that was an objectively stupid thing to do."

Here, one might ask: why is the romanticization of the spawn route considered more acceptable? Analyzing both routes, they both imply the romanticization of a potentially dangerous person to some extent. It’s possible that fans of Ascended Astarion attract more attention due to the obvious symbolism of power and its imbalance, but that doesn’t mean the spawn route is less romanticized in its essence. Both endings represent different facets of the same character, and attachment to one version is not necessarily more "justified" than to the other. Some romanticize him as vulnerable and seeking redemption, while others see his dark potential and ambition for power. In both cases, the perception of the character remains subjective, and it is unfair to assert that one form of romanticization is more acceptable than the other. In my opinion, again subjective, ignoring his dark sides in favor of the idea of "redemption" can create a distorted image of the character, where his darker tendencies are downplayed and undervalued for the sake of his potential "salvation."

But it's always only the fans of Ascended Astarion who often face concerns about their mental health and claims that such fantasies supposedly push women to choose abusive partners in real life. But by that logic, the spawn route ending is also a dangerous fantasy when applied to reality.

Thus, by following the "good" path, we willingly bind ourselves to a potentially dangerous partner who can kill us several times throughout the game, yet we continue to believe that we can fix or heal him with love, friendship, and support, and that he will ultimately reveal a different, better side of himself. This is literally the mentality of abuse victims: they see the deeply hidden "kindness" behind the aggressive facade and believe they can awaken it and change the person for the better. It is this faith in the "healing" of the abuser that prevents them from leaving.

But it is obvious that there is a profound divide between the world of fantasy and reality, and what works within the framework of a fictional story should not be applied to everyday life. Fantasies in games, books, or movies allow us to safely experience complex and idealized situations, immersing ourselves in roles and scenarios that can be destructive or dangerous in real life. For no fan of Ascended Astarion does this story serve as a basis for real beliefs or behavioral models in real life.

But I have seen some fans of the spawn route sincerely claim that Astarion evokes a sense of safety for them due to his status as a victim of sexual violence, which resonates with many women's experiences and personal experiences of abuse. This statement raises questions, especially when it comes to a character who can kill you when you try to help him. And if you do not want to help him, he may manipulate you into doing so.

The entire romance with Astarion is a romanticization of a walking red flag.

A romance with Astarion offers several ways to experience fantasy, and it would be hypocritical to judge it from a real-world perspective solely in the evil route. Like the "I can fix him" trope, the storyline with Ascended Astarion allows the player to explore certain psychological and emotional aspects.

Ultimately, characters like Astarion are designed to be ambiguous. All fans of Astarion, in one way or another, are involved in the process of romanticization, as they choose the path that resonates most closely with their personal preferences.

Fantasies about salvation through love are a normal occurrence in artistic works and fantasy settings, but is it fair to demand that fans of Ascended Astarion "take off their rose-colored glasses"? I am convinced that fans of Ascended Astarion have a much more sober view of the character, at least recognizing the dark side of Astarion and accepting it as a fundamental part of his character rather than as a mere byproduct of trauma.

The argument that "the romanticization of abuse in games encourages people to choose abusive relationships in real life" sounds as absurd as the claim that "shooters provoke people to commit real murders." Following this logic, one could accuse any stories that address complex or dark themes of allegedly romanticizing or promoting dangerous or socially unacceptable phenomena. For example, an intimate scene with Halsin in bear form could be perceived as romanticizing zoophilia since it is portrayed in a positive light if one ignores the entire context and forgets that it is fiction. However, it is clear that this scene is created for humor.

I truly believe that many of those who accuse fans of Ascended Astarion of romanticization hardly realize how deeply they themselves are immersed in it. There is nothing fair in these accusations, especially considering the source from which they come.

Ascended Astarion reaction to “I'll do it. I'll become a mind flayer”.

One of the interesting moments in Astarion's Ascension arc – in scriptural and cinematic point of view - is when Tav informs Astarion that they is not afraid of becoming an illithid.

(for Astarion, illithids are “it”. Justified by lore they lose all personality when they become one, except in the rarest of cases, it's Illithid roulette where the chance is far from 50\50)

Astarion clearly expresses that he doesn't want this and partly in an ironic (sassy) way.

And then this happens:

NodeContext: Trying to be assertive, but faltering

He looks at Tav straight in the eye, but then he thinks for a second, “if not… If it's unavoidable”. puppystaron

A whole body language here is just as brilliantly done.

There are many gestures in this scene before these two phrases, he suggests using the hammer with a pointing gesture “look, we have this other option.” But I'll focus my attention on these two. In the beginning Astarion “indicates”, he wants to show authority and say “no” clearly, then he “crosses out” in the air with his index finger such a suggestion, clenching the fist of his other hand. He's also outraged - he waves his arms around - no, no this all won't happen. That's his emotion. Then he realizes that it is simply impossible to say “no” to this, it is necessary to solve this problem, Astarion opens his palms as if to say “wait”, “then we will think”. Here, too, he wanted to be confident, assertive. And this is his faltering moment, his left hand clenches a couple times for seconds. Realizing that he's confused he wants to pull himself together, clenching both fists again already from his desire to be firmer, confident.

“We'll figure it out. I am sure”.

Next part main analytics of what he's talking about and how deep it is.

He's faltering exactly on the word “I”. Maybe it's here because: And who am I? A worm, weak and pathetic - who never amounted to anything. Astarion heard this throughout the 200 years of his torment. Cazador had insinuated it to him all along - the helplessness and doom of his condition. He's used to a position where he just has to resign himself to it. It's the aftermath of his deep wound.

And then it clicks “no”. We won. Cazador is dead. And I am Lord. We'll figure it out. “I am sure of it”.

He wants to, very much, his feelings here play colors and all the developments that have taken place. But the practical side of the situation… which he realizes inside makes him have feelings and think thoughts he would never want to think about - loss. And what kind of loss? His love.

I've written about the “We” part of the big analytics here before. Astarion uses it many times. This moment is special and precious because he uses "We" in a stressful and dangerous situation, when his confidence after a grand victory and freedom is suddenly shattered again. And his wound is open.

Astarion is used to no one helping him. His usual phrases are “trust no one”.

I remember in situations of danger, he showed only distrust that anyone could help him except himself. That's quite a lot.

When the emotional contact happens in act 2 his feelings with Tav become deeper and true. (although in Act 1, Astarion felt something that was just building up to wanting real and more)

This moment is important because:

- he expresses his “I”.

- that he doesn't just say “We” when he's proud and puffed up. “We rule, we are beautiful.” He says “We” when a problem needs to be solved. That's what makes this We special. And under stress that he's even stuttering (!). It's a huge step, as if to say, he doesn't push Tav away, his first thought on how to solve this problem - relies on us. It's also a comfort to him. In addition, his tone becomes very soft - he's trying to calm Tav down so they can figure something out, too. Including “wait” gestures are the soothing “take your time, calm down, we'll think about it” movement.

As soon as he felt the pain from his wound, he remembers the most important. It's his trust and confidence in each other.

We can do it together.

At the end, I suggest enjoying Astarion against a backdrop of blue space nebulae.

How I hate Tav/Dark Urge's lines after the ritual. Several rails to choose from, on which they offer you to ride: "I want your body / I want to use you to become a vampire," or creating conflict out of nowhere. Is this an RPG? For heaven's sake, he called you "pet" before. I can definitely feel how I'm being manipulated, but the manipulator turns out to be the writer themself, making sure I don't stray from the path they've set.

This scene has always broken my heart, but the mod helped a little — at least now I can comfort him.

The vampires bride

Would Astarion renew the bite? Discuss. ♥

Lately, I often come across the opinion that Ascended Astarion’s line, “I can't believe you let me do that. Killing all those people,” supposedly indicates that he recognizes the immorality of his actions and even condemns Tav/Dark Urge for allowing him to do it. Allegedly, he feels guilty and regrets not being “saved.”

This opinion is obviously influenced by the dialogues in the spawn ending, where Astarion thanks Tav for talking him out of performing the ritual. However, it’s important to pay attention to the full content of his line in the Ascended ending:

Astarion: I can't believe you let me do that. Killing all those people. A pleasant surprise.

Astarion does not express regret or condemnation, but rather surprise and pleasure that Tav went to such a serious crime for him.

This is followed by claims that he is lying or pretending, while deep down he feels guilt and disappointment. However, such conclusions merely show how objective facts are interpreted and distorted to align with one’s own beliefs.

Yes, Astarion fully understands that his actions are immoral, but this awareness does not imply disappointment in the ritual or Tav. On the contrary. He simply calls things as they are. He is honest with himself and with Tav/Dark Urge.

Moreover, it’s important to consider the context in which this phrase is spoken. It is clearly addressed to the player, who throughout the game made mostly morally good decisions, and then unexpectedly committed a radically evil act, surprising Astarion. If you played as a consistently evil character throughout the game, this line may seem illogical, strange, and devoid of meaning — yet another example of questionable RPG design and storytelling methods used by Welch.

To be honest, some people go to absurd lengths in their interpretations to present AA’s ending as a "bad" one for him.