The Way Disco Elysium Plays With And Ultimately Shatters The Concept Of "camaraderie" In The Police And

Wyll Ravengard from Baldur's Gate 3

Rubric

I get comments asking why I want Astarion to remain weak. I keep asking myself why people think he's weak? Just because he couldn't defend himself against his master Cazador doesn't mean he's weak in general and needs protection. He is as strong as any other companion, as a vampire spawn stronger as normal people even. and considering what he has experienced and still possesses humanity...who would be so strong-willed?

Was Astarion lying in this scene?

So there's a line that stands out to me from one of Astarion's act 1 scenes, when he admits that the player character was his first taste of blood from a person. When I first saw this scene and ever since, I've felt a bit conflicted about it, because I'm not sure whether or not he's lying. I do believe that Cazador wouldn't ever let him ever drink a person's blood, because he wants to degrade and torment him as much as he can, but it seems very possible that Astarion might have bitten one of his victims in the past, given that he was so starved. He'd certainly be punished horribly for it, but I think there's a definite possibility it happened at least once. The whole "you were my first" line came across to me as potentially a part of his manipulation, because that just sounds exactly like pandering straight to the player character's desires, trying to make us feel special. But the way that the line is delivered also puzzles me, because with the way he kind of mutters and looks to the side, it seems like he could be genuine here. But Neil Newbon is a legend and maybe he's just that good at portraying a well-delivered lie. I'm not sure if this topic ever comes up again, but it seemed pretty significant in terms of just how meaningful that first bite was, on multiple levels. I'm curious to know what others think and if I'm missing anything.

I completely agree with a lot of this, and thank you for bringing up some great points.

I agree that having meta knowledge of his character does change the experience, and as someone who is very into roleplaying in this game, I absolutely agree that having him tell the player about this specific trauma in act 2 could be a shock. On my first (blind) playthrough I just personally felt like something was off from early on in the way he spoke about sex, especially in the scene in the forest beforehand, as well as all the over-the-top hedonistic comments he makes so often. Even when I had no idea about his past, it felt like he was putting on a performance rather than sincerely wanting intimacy, and that's a big part of why I didn't want to go through with the sex on my first playthrough; something just felt wrong about it from how he was acting even though I didn't know why. (this was just how I experienced things). I only had the meta knowledge from a non-spoiler guide that this was the only way to initiate his romance.

I do love his story as it plays out in the game with the sex scene happening in act 1, and I do understand why people think that's the best way to tell his story. I just was trying to say that the integrity of his arc and the portrayal of his specific trauma responses are able to be conveyed just as strongly without the sex actually happening. It's just different. I DO love the fact that the way Astarion sets the boundary about not wanting to have sex for a while is SO important in the context of having slept together before. He's saying "I consented to this in the past, but now I don't" and that's *such* an important example of healthy communication and boundary-drawing that I LOVE that was portrayed in this game.

The whole unwarranted guilt over "not realizing sooner" is also such an important representation of reality as well and I love that you acknowledged it. Again, I just think that this feeling wouldn't be exclusive to having slept with him.

Also I totally agree about the blood drinking thing. Given how significant and intimate an act it would be in the context of their relationship, I wish there was a scene where we could tell him that we're okay with him drinking our blood in a completely non-sexual way.

TLDR: I agree with and very much appreciate this response, I just think that there are multiple ways his story can be told that are just as true to the character. Also that I just found it odd that this game goes to such lengths to prioritize the player's choices and freedom, but this in particular feels very rigid when it doesn't need to be. Anyway this is all just my opinions, and I just like talking about this character!

My one major issue within Astarion's romance storyline (spoilers)

TLDR: player shouldn't have to sleep with him in act one to initiate the romance.

(also please correct me if I'm wrong about this being the way the romance triggers. All the information I found said that the act 1 intimacy scene is necessary)

First of all, this just locks you out of romancing him unless you’re a very particular kind of person. On my playthrough, my character is not at all the type to sleep with him casually, but I went through with it because I very badly wanted to see his romance storyline. 

So let’s examine what leads up to the scene. Astarion, upon meeting the player, recognizes power in them and thus someone who can help protect him. He comes up with his “nice, simple plan” to seduce the player in order to get them to trust and care for him. This makes complete sense for his character, as he sees his main and perhaps only source of value being what he can offer physically. It’s what he knows how to do, and so in this crisis situation, of course it’s what he defaults to. The fact that he propositions the player is not what I have a problem with. It’s the fact that they have to say yes in order to further the romance, or else they’re locked out of it. 

On a practical level, I can understand what the thought process behind this might have been. Having a character proposition the player, being turned down, and then coming onto them again in the future might make them come off as a pest, which can make a character majorly unlikable. However I would argue this can be worked around because it is made very clear that the first encounter with him is meant to be a purely casual intimacy. Having a confession scene later where he proposes something more sincere would feel completely different, offering something new rather than not taking no for an answer. 

But the game forces you to accept his offer if you want to further the romance. This leaves the player in an uncomfortable position no matter what. There are two intimacy scenes possible in act one, the first being his high approval scene that can trigger whenever, where he makes the offer and the player can choose. Skipping this one does not lock you out of the romance IF you do sleep with him at the Teifling party afterward (if I’m not mistaken). The Tiefling party version of the scene is much much better if you care about him as a person, in my opinion, because he keeps the fact that he sees it as a transaction to himself. In the high approval scene, he outright says, albeit flirtatiously, that this is a reward for letting him drink your blood. Him presenting the encounter that way feels very icky if you say yes. So while it’s very in-character and a very honest and raw portrayal of how his trauma has affected him, it leaves the player in a bad position. 

Now, this plot point is crucial to his overall story, yes. He needs to initiate this kind of pandering to the player character, trying to seduce them and get their trust and loyalty. My argument is that this can be done *without* the sex scene. If I were to rewrite this scene, I would have it that he invites the character to the woods after the party in a more ambiguous way unless you yourself bring up the topic of sex. Then, when you’re both there having your private conversation, you can choose to decline his advances. He could become puzzled and maybe a little annoyed and say something like “why did you come here, then?”. The player could then have the option to respond with “I wanted to get to know you better” or something. This could be a really sweet and heartbreaking moment to look back on after you learn more about him. Give him a genuine moment of confusion in this scene, because it challenges what he thought about himself and other people; someone doesn't want him just for his body, and they also want to get to know him as a person. This would probably be a confusing and difficult feeling for him. He’d mask it quickly, of course, but still. Then, there could be a nice moment between them where they just have a cute conversation about anything. Maybe they could even just make this scene into a slightly different version of his scars scene the morning after. He showed up shirtless after all, so the player could go on to ask him about that and it could be a wholesome bonding moment. This would allow the player to show interest in him without it being explicitly sexual, but also not locking you out of the romance route with him. Also it’s asexual friendly. On a narrative and emotional level, this serves basically the exact same purpose as the sex scene(s), with the exception of the regret and moral greyness, which I think the player should be able to avoid anyway if they choose. Especially upon replays, this forces the player to engage in something they know is not an enjoyable experience for him, in order to trigger his romance storyline, which I think is kind of wrong. 

Interesting point here, though: If you’re playing as origin Karlach, then you can't sleep with him at first without, you know, burning him to a crisp. The romance plays out the same otherwise, PROVING MY POINT that it’s not necessary. In this version of events, they just “talk and fall asleep”. This would be exactly what I wanted. I just really wish this were an option in any other case.

I'm too demisexual for this.

THIS. You actually read my mind.

I'm not interested in people being needlessly pedantic over whether or not he literally "lost his soul" in ascension, because he very clearly lost something crucial to his being. He burned a bridge between himself and the future of healing and redemption he could have had. AA is not "free" in a meaningful way, and he shackled himself to Cazador's legacy forever, trapping himself in a state of non-healing. Of course he's not "just another Cazador", maybe he's even "not as bad". But that doesn't mean he's good. He chose to turn away from the good in himself. As Neil Newbon said, becoming Lord Astarion solidifies all of all the worst in him.

Being able to walk in the sunlight won't make him happy. Having no vampiric hunger won't help him heal from the trauma he's choosing not to face. Being able to see his reflection won't absolve him of his crimes. Being a vampire lord won't give him back the identity that was stripped from him. The Spawn ending isn't all sunshine and rainbows, but its a new dawn. Radiant and hopeful. Full of love and support for the long road of healing ahead.

"Ascended Astarion is what happens if trauma wins - he’s the desensitization to violence after centuries of torture and cruelty, he’s the false facade of confidence and superiority shielding a weak sense of self, he’s the belief that the only way to not be a victim is to be the abuser."

"He may not act exactly like Cazador but he has embraced the belief that to be safe is to be powerful at the expense of empathy and care for others, and with that it is inevitable his hunger for power will grow more and more sadistic consuming every good and tender part of Astarion just like it did to Cazador"

Flawlessly put. Actually perfect.

Some fans think Ascended Astarion is free from the curse of vampirism because he can walk in the sun and see his reflection and he isn’t hungry for blood, but he has just replaced all that for a far more sinister and consuming hunger. Vampires crave power the way they crave blood, insatiably and beyond their control. They are a metaphor for abusers, trapped in their futile struggle to feel fulfilled by harming and dominating others. That is part of their curse, the darkest and most isolating part. If we read Cazador’s thoughts, we find that he doesn’t identify with this monster he has become and deep down wants to just die. He is consumed by the curse of vampirism, everything from torturing his spawn to the ascension ritual were part of this vampiric hunger for power that made Cazador what he became. If Astarion ascends, that is what he will become.

He may not act exactly like Cazador but he has embraced the belief that to be safe is to be powerful at the expense of empathy and care for others, and with that it is inevitable his hunger for power will grow more and more sadistic consuming every good and tender part of Astarion just like it did to Cazador. Cazador was once a young Spawn who reached out to a friend and was impaled for a decade straight because of it. From Cazador’s perspective, he was a “loving”, “paternal” Master compared to Vellioth but that’s just the distorted mindset of the abuser. Just like every abusive parent thinks they aren’t abusive because their parent was “worse” to them. Cazador was different from Vellioth and Ascended Astarion would be different from Cazador but they’re the same beast. There’s no denying that the nature of vampirism and Master/Spawn relationships are abusive and the only way to free yourself from that cycle is to reject the poisonous allure of vampiric power.

Spawn Astarion cannot see his reflection or walk in the sun, at least not yet, but he can live and he can heal. He knows it’s safe to be loving and kind, that there’s more to the world than an endless cycle of power and pain which was all he experienced for 200 years as a slave to Cazador’s sick, undead mind. Spawn Astarion has won something Cazador never could, and that’s his soul back. Cazador died a power-hungry husk who didn’t recognize himself from the boy he once was with everyone he claimed to “love” relieved he was dead - Spawn Astarion won’t suffer that fate. Ascended Astarion is what happens if trauma wins - he’s the desensitization to violence after centuries of torture and cruelty, he’s the false facade of confidence and superiority shielding a weak sense of self, he’s the belief that the only way to not be a victim is to be the abuser. Spawn Astarion is bittersweet but hopeful and free to be himself, he is not consumed by what trauma and vampirism wants him to be. He is free to heal and find out who he is. That will take time, but it’s finally possible.

I cannot take Gortash seriously for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that he has anime hair

Delicious in Baldur’s Gate

Nyachooh

It's Astarion time.

After a lot of testing and a healthy dose of stress, the party are readying for one last adventure to mark the end of an era. But something feels different…

All excellent points. It's extremely impressive how well he's able to maintain a new relationship and care for someone else given all he has going on at the time, and its a testament to his heart, in my opinion.

I often see people push back against the idea that Astarion can be sweet and soft because of his harsher facets. He's allowed to be both. His bloodthirstiness does not erase his gentleness. His anger and bitterness do not negate his playfulness and caring. Nor is the inverse true; he's not a passive little kitten who has never done anything wrong. He's a complex person, but beyond that, he's just a person, period. People are never one thing.

All this is one of the reasons I love him so much; going through the hell he endured does not make someone kind. It's the sort of crushing conditions that can easily make people so bitter and toxic to the people around them. The fact that he maintained the light within himself through all those decades where Cazador tried to systematically crush every last good thing in him... that's a miracle. He's a miracle. Because despite having every reason not to, his life experience stacked against him, he still has so much kindness and softness inside. He still cares. I don't think he's exactly well-adjusted, even by the epilogue. I'm sure it will take him the rest of his life to heal, and he and his partner will have a lot to work through in their relationship. These things take work and effort, and though I'm sure Astarion would struggle with many parts of being in a relationship, he would put in the effort necessary to work on it. He's shown numerous times that he cares and is surprisingly proactive about the relationship. He's willing to self-examine and change, like OP said in regards to his behavioral checking and minding old habits. I'm sure he'd have plenty of bad days where he pushes his partner away and says hurtful things he doesn't mean when he's triggered or overwhelmed, but that doesn't mean he's not loving and willing to work on things. I also think his reaction to his partner becoming illithid is completely valid and realistic. The fact that he's so willing to even try to make it work honestly shows how he open and accepting he is, even in the face of you become one of the things your party has been fighting against and hating for the entire game. The man is going through a lot, and dealing with his love becoming a tentacled beast is just one more item in his list of things to process, and I'm sure it hurts. Let him have time to grieve and process. I've said this before, but Astarion is arguably the least judgmental of all the companions, which seems at odds with his nature. Until you realize it's just proof of how caring and empathetic he has the capacity to be, deep down, despite his best efforts to pretend otherwise. Anyway, it bothers me when people argue against portraying his softness and caring as being non-canon or unrealistic, just because he has a harsh, bloodthirsty, vengeful, self-serving side as well. Both are canon. Both are true. Both are equally important to his identity. He contains multitudes and that's exactly what makes him such a compelling character.

just thinking about astarion is SUCH a sweet partner? like this man was barely an adult elf when he was turned, and spent the next 200 years being abused by cazador, but like

- as the durge character, he'll be accepting and talk about your mental health and reassure you

- he'll insist on staying with your half illithid character, saying you shouldnt make his choices for him if you try to leave to protect him

- also just the dichotomy of him being explicitly vain and also explicitly not shallow is very sweet

- in that one lathanders light scene, he'll tell you he appreciates you trying to fix your mistake after you caused him IMMENSE pain

- he'll empathize with and support you if you swear your body to haarlep, noting how he's been through similar and is sorry you're going through it

- hes not jealous, his issues with sharing seem to largely come from if he thinks the other party would be okay with it (like he thinks lae'zel would spear him lol), and when someone like halsin comes along he'll happily consent

- on that note, he grows enough to be comfortable asking for support and reassurance instead of possessiveness/jealousy (not that these are the only options for that scenario, but astarions seen a lot of possessiveness in his life and its wonderful how much he avoids replicating it)

- he will always attack cazador in the final confrontation if cazador starts verbally abusing you instead of him

- he puts in the work to set boundaries that allow him to engage in an intimate (emotionally, physically, but not sexually) romantic relationship with tav and apologizes for "using" him before, when his behavior was SO understandable. and also he manipulated tav by having... consensual enjoyable sex lol. he might have ulterior motives but he never actually tries to use his sexual relationship with tav to manipulate him into doing anything

- you learn how astarion felt for Sebastian and how tender he was

- you learn about the first boy astarion couldnt bear to bring to cazador, the one he called soft and sweet (or something like that) and then was punished horribly for a straight year for it

- even when you turn to a half illithid, his main concern is you losing your agency

- if you are a full illithid, at the end of the game, some people complain about him not being ride or die, but i think he shows REMARKABLE willingness and support. what he cares about most is that you are still you, and how is he supposed to know for sure? i think asking him to stay with a type of being known for manipulation and mind control after everything he went through with cazador IS A HUGE FUCKING ASK. and he doesnt even write you off immediately? thats a lot of love right there

- if you arent illithid, he will double-check you want to plan a future with him still, and only once you affirm this will he express how badly he wants it. he's actively avoiding trying to manipulate you even

and probably more stuff im just not thinking of off the top of my head. obviously this is about the spawn route vs. ascended, but im just constantly amazed that despite EVERYTHING astarion has gone through, probably centuries without a healthy, loving relationship or even examples of that nearby, he still defaults to being kind, empathetic, and caring as soon as he gets the chance

like sure, he might be minorly evil and self-serving but personally i think thats the least he deserves

more importantly, the boys from astarions past give us a rare window into what he was like before turning into a vampire—he was gentle, empathetic lover. he was kind, he was protective. and as soon as he has the space to start looking for himself again, he goes RIGHT back to that behavior. he even self-checks for his "manipulation" and tries to correct for it

it just shatters my heart and then puts it back together hes such a wonderfully written character. astarion is allowed to be lovely AND furious and vengeful and maybe its just my raised-catholic ass, but its SO cathartic to see that a forgiveness arc is never pushed for his abuser

Oh I had no idea that there's a version where Orin doesn't show up! I really like your interpretation of the "correct" answers. I *love* your take on the "breaking a nail" line, and the callback to the line back in Grymforge is something I noticed too but hadn't thought about in connection with his past. I read it as a representation of his performance of vanity as a facade, (which is a topic I want to delve into in the future). You're also absolutely right about these being half-truths. I ran through this scene a bunch of times a while ago to see the different responses, and it's fascinating what the dryad seems to consider "correct" versus what Astarion considers "correct" in terms of approval, and how he approves of different answers in different ways. It's so cool how a scene as seemingly inconsequential as this is so complex and nuanced. Thanks for your additions!

What I like about the Dryad Test scene (Astarion romance spoilers)

So I haven't done any other character's romance yet, but I want to talk about the brilliance of Astarion's version of the “romance test” scene in the circus. While I do think it was a missed opportunity to show a little more vulnerable reaction when you first call him forward to do the test (calling him the "one you love"), before he covers it up with his usual mask, I think this is a beautifully subtle scene overall. Which is impressive given how indulgent it is. The whole premise is that you full well know the true answers to the questions, but if you want to make him happy and comfortable, you wont give them. He’s clearly uncomfortable with you bringing up personal information in front of an audience, even if it’s to correctly answer the question. He obviously isn’t taking the test seriously at all, and is doing it more to just have fun and mess around. As much as I adore sincerity, this scene is just so in-character for Astarion I can't be mad at it. You’re showing him how well you know him *by* answering incorrectly, because you know *that’s* what he wants. You're showing that you know him, and you don't need to prove it. While it would have been fun and cute to just have a little moment here that plays right into the dryad's game without any twists, this execution of the scene suits Astarion's current emotional state so much better, and makes it more engaging. The story doesn't just pander to the player, no matter how indulgent Astarion seems as a character. He’s imperfect and struggling a lot, and the player needs genuine patience to see the real him in those rare moments when he lets the mask fall.

He’s been making some very slow changes throughout the game up to this point, and he’s still grappling with that. It’s obvious that even he doesn't really understand or want to face his feelings and how he’s changed, as he’s unwilling to even put a label on his relationship with the player character at this point. He’s all about using his mask as a shield, and so the times we’ve seen behind it have been insanely vulnerable by his standards; private moments meant to stay between the two of you. So of course he wouldn't like it if you just bring up his deepest feelings in a public setting all for some silly carnival activity. He’s also very much the type to say: “like I need a dryad to tell me how I feel”, when prompted with the game in the first place. He probably only agreed because the player wanted to, and he wanted to just have a bit of a laugh. It’s not that he doesn't have genuine feelings for the character, but rather that he has no clue how to handle them. He’s probably holding back a lot at this point in the story, and it probably scares him that he’s getting so attached to someone. Someone that could be taken from him. He probably sees that as a weakness that Cazdor could exploit to hurt him even more, and so his  natural instinct would be to keep everything close to his chest. Orin’s line about Gortash using our connection as a noose by which to hang us probably illustrates his fears perfectly. It’s scary when you have feelings beyond your control, and given that he probably hasn't felt this way about someone in as long as he can remember, if ever, he’s probably even more unnerved. This subtle internal struggle is perfectly illustrated in this scene. At this point in the story overall, he’s confused, on edge, afraid, angry, but also maybe the slightest bit hopeful for the first time in a long time, because of the player. 

The best part is that his instincts about not wanting his personal information shared with a stranger is justified, as Orin shows up to ruin the fun. Apparently in early versions of the game, its at this point that she would kidnap the player’s romanced companion, but apparently play testers hated that (this is just what I've heard). It would be so neat, even though I'd panic and drop everything to hunt her down. That sinking feeling when Orin reveals herself is only magnified if you answer the “true” options during the love test, because now one of our greatest enemies has critical information that could be used to hurt our loved one. 

Anyway I just love how subversive this scene is because of who Astarion is as a person, and how it illustrates the unique bond he has with the player character. His reactions are so cute when you give answers that he likes (like saying what he wants most is revenge, or that most things fear *him*, actually). This is a rare moment when it seems like he's actually having fun. It's just two idiots in love messing around, and that's important.

(This is all just my interpretation. Feel free to disagree)