If Lancelot Ran Away After Killing Agravain Then Coming Back To Kill Gareth To Rescue Gwen, There Was

Note: I discuss details that suggest Morgan x Artoria in this post. Don't read if you're uncomfortable with the idea.

Artoria considers Kay her brother but she treats none of Morgan's children as her blood relatives. She calls none of her knights nieces or nephews let alone calling Mordred her son. Even as Morgan slapped Tristan with all the evil Gifts, she still calls her sister. In people's eyes, Lancelot is her most favorite knight/person. However when counting her inner thought, it's Morgan who she let get away with everything. Even when Mordred revealed the truth about her heritage, Artoria still acknowledged Morgan as her sister. She grew up with Kay, it's not difficult for her to call him brother. Arguably she wouldn't have known about Morgan until Merlin brought everyone's attention to Artoria. Morgan left when Camelot was built. Assuming they didn't meet in secret, Artoria spent less time with Morgan than with any of Morgan's children. Her wording to Mordred was specific. She could have used Morgan's name only or refers to her as the elder daughter of Uther Pendragon. She opted to call her sister. While Garden of Avalon described her as nothing more than a pebble in Artoria's path she at the same time couldn't injure Artoria's heart. Tristan left the Round table with harsh words to Artoria and that was enough to wound her heart. In Fate/Apocrypha, in the last conversation with her Master Mordred realized Artoria became king for 'the stones on the road side'. This calls back to Morgan being a pebble in Artoria's path, not that Mordred is aware of that comparison. The stones Mordred mentioned are the people of Britain and Artoria has a sense on obligatory duty to them. The pebble that is Morgan is one Artoria shows personal favoritism among all the ones she feel obligated to help and serve. Caster Artoria admitted to playing favoritism and that's not unique to her, all Artorias do that. While she is supposed to treasure all lives, she openly wants to kill Merlin. Either he finally crossed a line or he has messed with someone she plays favoritism toward. If one thinks Artoria is a merciless and inhuman king then everything Morgan did were of no consequenxe to Artoria. Taking into account of the mask she wears in front of everyone, nothing Morgan did made Artoria hates her. She blamed herself for Lancelot and Guinevere's affair, for Tristan's words, for her country's destruction. It's not out of her character to not fault Morgan for anything but that's only because she considers Morgan dear to her. To be fair, Morgan didn't force her into a similar situation with their uncle where either Artoria kills her or gets killed.

She has lines for Merlin, Gareth and Medb. Those lines of course hint at their appearance in LB6. At the same time, it suggests Caster Artoria spending time with Gareth before she went to become a knight. The other children of Morgan don't exist in LB6 or she didn't spend time with them. If the Round Table doesn't exist in LB6, why is she excited to see Gareth became a member? This could implicate that she spent time with Morgan for a good while in LB6.

She still says nothing about Morgan. Her profile mentions she hides her true feelings from everyone. She's quite open when we converse with her so the things she would want to hide would be very private and personal to her.

One detail stands out: the chocolate she claims to like. Would it even possible for chocolate to be there at that time period??? Before talking about chocolate, cacao plants don't grow in Britain. By normal means there's no chololate there. Artoria can't make it herself otherwise she would ask for ingredients rather than for the final product. Merlin can't make it since he doesn't have human sense of taste and she would have mentioned it was him who gave it to her. Semiramis turned her Hanging Garden into a chocolate factory once. She compared it to making poison. Her debut event had us helping her (chocolate self but identical to her in everyway) make chocolate. There were enough to nearly flood Chaldea. She also met MHA and got stumped by her attitude toward chocolate/sweet and poison although this is a minor detail. She is similar enough to Morgan for Mordred to refrain from outright badmouthing her at the end of Apocrypha event. It's highly likely Morgan gave chocolate to Artoria and if it's true, their relationship is good this time around. At the same time, if something happened and they are on the opposing sides again then it's a sad repeat of history.

Aside from Mordred, has anyone or her nieces or nephews actually called her aunt? To them, she's their king. Let's not forget the knights and Gawain - her nephew - tricked her into wearing that bunny outfit. That's another strange thing since as Ruler, not even Moriarty can fool Artoria. If I don't count the developers' intention, Artoria intentionally play the fool in a similar fashion to Nobu. As seen with X and XX however, her real mental process is different to others, taking even the silliest thing to be serious and that doesn't make sense to others not on the same wavelength as hers. Add to those is her willingness to believe those she trusts blindly. That could be viewed as her being fair and trying to listen to others. It's dubious at this point if any of them (except Mordred) views her as family seeing that Gawain doesn't spare her from his perversion. We also haven't gotten Morgan's POV yet.

If I can throw my hat into the ring regarding Morgan’s FGO design, because I definietely have… thoughts. I don’t hate her design, and I’m interested in her character, but visually she does fall a little flat for me. Slight spoiler warning for LB6. Long rambling post ahead.

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My favorite part about the Nasuverse is how it needlessly crams down the Arthurian mythos. Technically, there should be about 50 years of stuff, and Arthur should have reigned for between 20-30 years. Which gives time for several iterations of the Round Table, ending with the generation of Galahad.

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Why Morgan being Uther's Daughter Annoys Me

So, I mentioned a few times a little about the fact that Morgan being Uther's daughter and how I hate it. Since I got a few people mentioning that they wanted to see my thoughts on it, I'll give a few at least.

So, before we begin, I'm going to give a quick refresher on Morgan's backstory, just so people don't have to read back over things I've written or other stuff.

Morgan is almost always (other than in Welsh sources were she doesn't get mentioned until Arthur is mentioned going to Morgan the Healer) the daughter of Igraine and Gorlois, who Malory calls Duke of Cornwall. She and her sister Morgause (and their sister Elaine who doesn't much show up in the stories) apparently had a good relationship with their father, since he's called a 'good man' pretty consistently. However, Gorlois appears to be a political rival of Uther Pendragon, for the more or less shaky throne.

The problem occurs when Uther invites Gorlois to a feast to work out an alliance, but on seeing his wife, Igraine, he immediately wants her. Igraine seems to notice his interest, and immediately runs to her husband, who immediately takes her at her word and leaves.

Uther declares war. And while he talks about betrayals and such, the real reason is he wants Igraine THAT bad.

However, since Gorlois is himself powerful, and Igraine is actually faithful to her husband, Uther employs Merlin to make him look like Gorlois. Some stories say that he kills Gorlois on the battlefield others say that it was in his own house. Regardless, he is taken for Gorlois and Igraine sleeps with him.

Uther later reveals himself as Uther, breaks the news that he killed Gorlois and that Igrain slept with HIM that night.

He pretty much forcibly marries Igraine, and sends Morgause to be married to his ally Lot and Morgan into a nunnery where she is later married herself (girls used to be educated in nunneries).

This is a motivation. Morgan has absolutely EVERY reason to hate Uther Pendragon, the man who killed her father, raped her mother and tore her happy family apart. She has every reason to struggle with her feelings for Arthur, moving between hating and aiding him, sewing the seeds of his destruction and then coming to save him. She has every reason to despise Guinevere who not only accused one of Morgan's lady's of adultery, but also throws the chance of the happy family Morgan can never reclaim in the dirt. She has every reason to hate Lancelot, who comes in to the same thing she saw Uther do.

What making Morgan as the daughter of Uther does is completely nullify her reasons and motives. It makes her a villain with a nearly incomprehensible motive. She wants to take over Britain but she couldn't do it anyways because she'd have to be a man and she wasn't going to hide that. She hates Artoria for particular reason other than 'she's in my way'. She just seems to be there because the story needed a villain. This utterly erases Morgan's pain and rage, and it seems like all it's there to do is exonerate Uther.

Uther's defining act, and the thing that Arthur is born from, is a horrific deed that should solidify him as a monster. He knew perfectly well Igraine wasn't interested, but he forced her to marry him anyways. By making it having never happened like that, it makes Uther a more heroic figure than anyone whose name is "the Terrible One" should ever be.

While, yes, artistic license is a thing and all that, this particular change is both pointless and leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

My favorite part about the Nasuverse is how it needlessly crams down the Arthurian mythos. Technically, there should be about 50 years of stuff, and Arthur should have reigned for between 20-30 years. Which gives time for several iterations of the Round Table, ending with the generation of Galahad.

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Pokémon Team Rascal Line Stickers ♡

thanks for the tl;dr. While I don't agree with all your opinions, I get where you're coming from. Highkey, if you don't mind, what do think of Urobuchi as a writer? I frankly can't stand the man's writings, not only in regards to his "DeCoNsTrUcTiOn" of the magical girl genre with Madoka, but also Fate/Zero and his work on Kamen Rider Gaim.

It's......really hard for me to not blame Urobutcher himself for how Madoka basically killed the entire magical girl genre by causing it to be flooded with edgy tryhard tortureporn.

Like from an objective and analytical standpoint, Madoka is an incredible and meticulously crafted story. ...but subjectively, i fucking hate it, and then on top of that also hate it for what it (again, indirectly) did the genre and really just mainstreem anime in general to a certain, albeit obviously much lesser, degree. I feel like that's an entirely different discussion though, and really it just boils down to a case of "it's good" and "I don't like it" are not mutually exclusive. That's my read anyways.

Fate/Zero i love when watched bit by bit but dont like as a coherent story for much the same subjective reasons I'm personally not a fan of Madoka. For all my negativity I don't actually like nihilistic or cruel stories. Fate/Zero is actually what made me realize that, being the first time I had to as aforementioned go "it's good....but I don't like it." I love pretty much everything that doesn't involve Kerry, which is an issue when the whole story revolves around Kerry.

It's by no means without some serious issues though. Urobutcher wrote Artoria as a completely different character and it causes some serious inconsistencies that had harmful long-term repercussions, the banquet scene is a great setup that as I've discussed before falls completely flat in retrospect because nothing talked about was delivered on, and characters like Abs Hassan and Kariya got beyond wasted, just to name some of my issues with Zero.

But unlike with a LOT of Nasu's writing, actually just FGO writing in general frankly, those flaws don't contradict the ethos of the story. They come across less as contradictions that the writer couldnt be asked to rectify, as much as they do human error and an inability to make everything perfectly coherent and loop back around to the an overarching point. None of the things i've mentioned really detract from the message Fate Zero wants to give. They detract from the quality and consistency of the storytelling, absolutely, but not from the intended purpose of that storytelling. That sort of thing is HUGELY different than something like FGO just making up alternate history to suit it's narrative despite said narrative supposedly being about unity through our shared real world history.

I suppose what it really comes down to is that I don't feel malice or narrow mindedness from Urobutcher's works the way I do from Nasu. Kirei is the best example of this - i'd go so far as to argue Kirei's character didn't have ANY of the depth people now attribute to it before Urobutcher got involved. That's not even a dig at Nasu, that's just how much Urobutcher clearly GETS the kind of character Kirei is [now] meant to be. Same goes for Gilles and Kerry, those are characters that were perfect for someone like Urobutcher to execute (in multiple senses).

Again, Urobutcher is not a flawless writer by any stretch, no one is, and his style is by no means for everyone, because no style SHOULD be universally appealing...but I feel like he very much gives a shit. I feel like whether its all the way back with Fate Zero or his relatively more recent return for Lostbelt 3, Urobutcher gave a shit and did everything with as much purpose as he could. On that ground alone, I'm willing to be a lot more sympathetic to the parts of his writing i don't like, since I can at least convince myself those things (be it intentional choices or simple mistakes) were done in good faith.

BEHOLD. Someone said, probably more than a year ago, that I should try my hand at making a relationship chart for our favorite Arthuriana characters in Fate. I didn't feel like doing it then, but I felt like doing it now, and then while doing it remembered why I didn't feel like doing it then.

This is literally just the 'Saber' part.

This is a (somewhat) simplified version of the Saber part. I tried formatting this so many ways and this was the one that made me want to scream the least.

NOTES:

Explaining why 'Pendragon' is in quotes: 'Pendragon' was more of a title than an actual surname, literally meaning 'Head Dragon' in Welsh, and was mostly an authoritative title used in regards to Uther. Over time, people added the title to Arthur's name as a pseudo-surname as well, before it became treated as an actual surname for the figure. However, this does mean that Mordred most likely wouldn't be 'Mordred Pendragon' unless he acquired the same societal status as Uther and Arthur via becoming king. Still, Fate is one of the many works that treats 'Pendragon' as a true surname rather than a title.

Similarly to 'Pendragon', 'Vortigern' may also be a title that became a name later on, with historians arguing that it may have meant something like 'Supreme Lord'. It wasn't until later interpretations that 'Vortigern' went from a nebulous, violent ruler of the Britons to Arthur's uncle and Uther's brother.

In terms of legends, Morgan is often the step-daughter of Uther after his marriage of Igraine. In Fate, Morgan is Uther's biological daughter and was simply falsely presented as Uther's step-daughter. This is probably a result of fusing Morgan with Uther's daughter Morgause.

Arthur and Morgan have two obscure siblings that will probably never be relevant: Queen Elaine of Garlot, and Madoc.

Gawain, Gareth, Gaheris, and Agravain all had wives. Gareth was married to Lady Lyonesse, Gaheris was married to Lady Lynette (the sister to Lady Lyonesse), Agravain was married to Lady Laurel (Lyonesse and Lynette's niece), and Gawain was… complicated.

See, Gawain had a lot of romances going on. A decent amount of stories had him start single, fall in love, ride off into the sunset… and then come the next tale he'd be single again, rinse and repeat. I'm guessing Ragnell is his canonical spouse since that's the most well-known story and the one with a solid romantic moral in it, but a name has not been dropped and Fate Gawain seems to have no qualms about being 'single again' so honestly we may never know. Which is honestly fitting characterization if you take his 'episodic romances' literally.

I almost forgot Ywain was canonized via Summer Ruler Artoria. He's also here.

Gray and Add are representing Sir Kay because he doesn't have any clear artwork yet.

Yeah but like, don't you have to be chosen by the planet and be 'worthy' to use Excalibur or something like that??

I do not for the life of me remember how the fuck Excalibur works in fate beyond that Bedi not returning it was what resulted in The Lion King. It's also so subsumed with Caliburn in popular culture that I do not remember where one stops and the other starts most of the time.

The fact that they can shoot beams with it, doesn't that make all of Chaldea sabers?

The 'worthiness' thing is Caliburn, which Fate establishes as a different sword in its canon (which is a familiar take in some versions of Arthuriana, the Caliburn/Excalibur thing is historically kinda muddy).

Excalibur is just an incredibly juiced-up Divine Construct that needs a ton of mana and shoots super lasers that automatically scale in strength depending on how much of a 'threat to humanity' something is. And because of how powerful it is, and how much mana it consumes, will kill people who aren't properly built for using it- like Bedivere. Which is why handing Excalibur to Ritsuka and saying 'use it' would be the fastest way to get a Dead End, because they'd probably die instantly after firing it off.

Luckily, Artoria is built different (Dragon Core), and can use it without dying instantly. She'll just get really tired instead.

So, again, it's a fair weapon to stick on to your massive flying magical super ship, if not pretty energy consuming, so you need to make sure it works when you do fire it off.

So reddit got more PHH Morgan lore. First of all, she's actually Artoria's full blooded sister. When she was born, Gaia made her "the Child of Britain" who would inherit the island's mystery. The result was that she got three different split personalities like Kay mentioned: Morgan the human(Warrior), the fairy(Fairy), and the personification of Britain(Witch). Note: her Fairy self is named VIVIAN yes, LADY OF THE LAKE Vivian. According to Lancelot, Nimue, his mom, was an alias for Vivian so...

-Me: "So Nasu, which is it? Is Morgan Igraine's kid or Uther's kid?' Nasu: "... Yes."

-So basically Morgan's three bitches in PHH. I would have thought it was a gradual process from one to another but of course Nasu takes the fucking craziest and most metaphysical route possible just to clock me in the face.

-Well that explains the whole 'Evil Vivian' thing.

... Also-

Arturia: *at Gawain* You're Morgan's kid.

Arturia: *at Agravain* You're Morgan's kid. (Wish I wasn't)

Arturia: *at Gareth* You're Morgan's kid!

Arturia: *at Gaheris* You're Morgan's kid! (How'd I get here?!)

Arturia: *at Mordred* You're Morgan's AND my kid. (...Can you say that again?)

Arturia: IS THERE ANY MORE CHILDREN OF MORGAN IN MY COURT?!

Lancelot: ... Well...not biologically...but...

Arturia: ....

The Orkney Siblings: ...

Mordred: ... I'm not extending my family tree any further.

Also also-

Lancelot: My own mother tried to rape me...

Mordred: At least she gave a shit about you.